Building trust and understanding ministers: Jasmina Joldić explores the public servant/minister dynamic

The Westminster system of government rests on a fundamental bargain. The elected executive government exercises power vigorously and assertively, and also transparently and accountably, while the public service provides frank and impartial advice without fear of retribution. 

This vital yet fragile dynamic is being explored by senior public servant and former ANZSOG Board Member Jasmina Joldić PSM in her upcoming report: A Practitioner Reflection on Trust, Power and Westminster Practice - a personal reflection on her experience, shaped by research and discussion of the issues with peers and academics. 

Ms Joldić recently joined ANZSOG’s Evelyn Loh in conversation with, exploring the relationship between ministers and public servants and how that has shifted over time. During the session she gave practical insights into how senior public servants could work effectively with ministers and their offices. 

Ms Joldić said that while Australia’s Constitution and the High Court provided a skeleton institutional framework, the system was centred on trust. 

“Trust sits at the core of relationships between ministers and secretaries, between government and parliament, between institutions and the public. When powerful actors choose to follow the rules, the system functions,” she said. 

These ‘rules of the game’ which made government work in practice were ‘codified in in ordinary statutes, standing orders, administrative handbooks, or remain as unwritten convention’ and emphasised accountability, cooperation and adherence to established norms. 

She said that the erosion of trust in the relationship between ministers and the public service had not been caused by a single big event, but the accumulation of minor shocks that expose those blurred lines. 

High profile incidents such as integrity scandals, like Robodebt in Australia, had undermined trust, coupled with media and political narratives that misrepresent the public service with stereotypes. 

Ms Joldić said that Commissions of Inquiry or Royal Commissions were often called in the wake of scandals, but their recommendations were mostly about the role of the public service, and rarely about what ministers needed to do. 

“This us-and-them culture really further erodes that trust and frays the relationship. And we know that recovery can be such a really long-term process. It takes years to recover from it, if ever.” 

Understanding your minister, understanding the politics 

Ms Joldić said there is a difference in being apolitical vs non partisan and public servants needed to be politically astute to effectively serve a minister – it required an understanding of the political context they operate in, and their personal methods of working. 

“Don't try to do the politics for politicians. That is not our job. Our job is to really give the best policy advice, and let them sort out the politics,” she said. 

“What I've noticed is that each minister demonstrates distinct leadership and governance styles, ranging from visionary to focused on problem solving. So, in order for public servants to be effective in their jobs, it is really essential for us to understand our ministers,” she said. 

“Knowing their priorities, their red lines, ways of working, ways of communicating, what their preferences are really helps us as public servants to craft the advice that is technically sound and politically relevant. 

“It allows public servants to anticipate the data, analysis and options that they will seek. Timely, targeted briefings do not just reduce surprises, but they actually foster trust.” 

Her report uses a typology of five kinds of ministers, developed by Professors John Wanna and James Walter - the visionary, the fixer, the communicator, the steward, the delegator – that public servants can use to understand their ministers’ ways of working.  

She advised senior public sector leaders to take every opportunity they could to understand how their ministers worked. 

“Take every opportunity you can to brief them, have conversations with them and find out what is going on. Go with them to stakeholder meetings, and understand how they interact with others that are outside of the public service,” she said. 

“In Queensland, going to Community Cabinet was a great opportunity to really understand the ministerial dynamics, and work with your colleagues across the public service, and also to really understand the people that we deliver services to.” 

The changing role of ministerial offices 

Ms Joldić said that she had been fortunate to have been seconded to ministerial offices early in her career, which helped give her ‘the last missing piece to the 360-degree view of government’.  

“We often don't get to see the whole life that the minister has outside of the public service. They are parliamentarians, they are members of a party, they are local members, they are a cabinet minister and heads of departments. It was also really helpful for me in terms of understanding where the political line is and what it looks like.” 

She said that one of the biggest changes in the relationship – and one that often escaped formal codification - was the growing role of chiefs of staff and expanding numbers of ministerial staffers, who had become ‘campaign-grade control rooms’ within ministerial offices. 

“The relationship between the minister and the secretary was once a direct and mutual interaction. While the chief of staff role improves the coordination, it also concentrates informal power, reviving debates about transparency and parliamentary oversight.” 

Being a thoughtful steward of the public sector 

Ms Joldić is a passionate advocate of the value of the public sector and the importance of stewardship in the work of individual public servants, and urged participants to build stewardship into their daily work. 

“In the APS we have a legislated responsibility as public servants to be the stewards of the system. When I was working on the report, the instability of institutions and governments across the world was really obvious, and it made me reflect again on trust and stewardship,” she said. 

“We all play a role. It doesn't just happen at a secretary or deputy level it happens at every level of the system. I really encourage you to think about this and why this is important.”  

“I hope what public servants can walk away with is a bit of self-reflection. What is my role? Where do I fit in the bigger system? How do you build trust? How do you steward the system? Be very clear why this is important. It really is the bedrock of our democracy. “